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Deep Church By Jim Belcher & Richard J. Mouw (Foreward By) Our Price $ 14.96   Retail Value $ 17.00   You Save $ 2.04  (12%)   Item Number 606097   Buy New Item Quantity: 1              2              3              4              5              6              7              8              9              10              11              12              13              14              15              16              17 ABOUT TRUST ONLINE

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	great read on church  Jan 23, 2010
This book crisply paints a picture of the ongoing dialogue between the traditional church and the emerging church. It will help you identify key features from both sides and the author will make his own conclusion about the issue as he draws stories from redeemer church in CA where he pastors.
	Excellent Discussion Starter  Jan 13, 2010
I've been somewhat fascinated by the Emerging Church since I first heard about it a few years ago. Not sure if "fascinated" is the right word, as I've disagreed with the vast majority of the theology and practices coming out of the movement (although it's clearly not a homogeneous thing), but I've been intrigued for reasons I couldn't quite place. After reading Jim Belcher's book, Deep Church, I think I've figured out why I was interested in the movement. While I disagree with much of the theology and many of the methods the Emerging Church has produced, I share many of the same critiques and frustrations with the Traditional Church. If you always find yourself discouraged by false dichotomies between solid beliefs and culturally accessible designs, you will appreciate this book. Belcher describes himself as one "caught in between" the Emerging and Traditional Churches. Orthodox in belief yet progressive in methods, Belcher's California church has been his attempt to capture these traditional beliefs within a church context that appeals to and reaches our current era. As such, he clearly resonates with many in the Emerging movement as far the areas they find the Traditional Church lacking. In the book, Belcher essentially examines seven aspects of the church (truth, evangelism, gospel, worship, preaching, ecclesiology, and culture) and then details the critiques from the Emerging leaders. Then, he describes how the Traditional Church has pushed back and why. Finally, he presents his "third way," an attempt to learn from Emerging without abandoning Traditional. The strength of this book is clearly Belcher's ability to fairly represent both sides on these divisive issues. In fact, I routinely found myself reading the Emerging critique, agreeing with people I never thought I would. Belcher takes great care to paint the pictures carefully, often visiting Emerging leaders and describing the heart behind the new ways of doing things. Then, he's able to turn around and crank up the orthodoxy and point out problems when they exist. I didn't always agree with his "third way," but in most cases, it truly involved both sides. With so many rifts existing within Christianity, and Evangelicalism in particular, I enjoyed this book as a way to guide the discourse towards civility, pointing out problems with a gentle spirit, but nevertheless calling a spade a spade. He also gives some very helpful framework to discuss the issues. Terms like foundationalism, centered-set, bounded-set, and relational-set beliefs were all new to me, but allowed me to understand more of where those in the Emerging Church are coming from. I don't agree with where they've gone, but I can understand better. As I said, the "third way" Belcher proposes to each issue will not satisfy everyone. How could it, really? I don't believe it's possible to design a church that will appeal to every person out there. It's a helpful model to use, however, with whatever modifications are necessary for your context. Deep Church is a challenging book written by a pastor with a clear heart for the church and for the truth about Jesus Christ. It has been a welcomed addition to my library, and I think many in the church would benefit greatly from it.
	Deep Church but the Deep Ecclesiology chapter needs a rewrite  Dec 15, 2009
This book is very well written, and shows deep reflection at many points. Jim Belcher describes both his personal journey and interaction with key leaders in three streams of the emerging church movement(s). Aptly summarizing the views and priorities of each, Belcher notes how each group interacts with the current generation and specifically postmodernism: (1) Relevants seek to transform traditional church structures and forms to effectively communicate the gospel to our culture and thus effectively reach our postmodern generation. (2) Reconstructionists seek to replace traditional institutionalism with organic New Testament principles; though they are not motivated by postmodernism, this more organic approach does resonate with the current generation because it explicitly relies on interactive relationships (every-member-functioning body) rather than institutional structures and hierarchical leadership. (3) Revisionists, unlike the first two groups who uncritically hold to orthodox theology, seek to change the emphasis of the gospel message itself away from what they claim is an enlightenment-centric focus on transactional concepts like the atonement to a relational gospel which focuses on reconciliation. Belcher then spends several chapters diving into various topics where his interactions with emerging church leaders shed light into Deep Truth, Deep Evangelism, Deep Gospel, Deep Worship, Deep Preaching, Deep Ecclesiology, and Deep Culture, drawing from the emerging church proponents that he sees having the most insight into the topic. In almost every chapter, I was impressed by Belcher's sincere interaction with various leaders, showing great respect and desire for understanding rather than charicature. Several of the church leaders he met with personally, re-reading their books and seeking clarification and feedback to make sure he got their perspectives right. I appreciate his efforts to seek common ground in universal theological principles and practices among Christians, though his preference is clearly his own Reformed tradition, with a deep respect for the Great Tradition, not only the theology expressed in the ancient creeds but also the liturgy embraced in common by Catholic, Orthodox, and Reformed traditions among others. Unfortunately, as another reviewer noted, this graciousness does not extend to Anabaptists and other simple church proponents like the Brethren; it is clear he simply does not relate. Thus we turn to the chapter that desperately needs rewritten. I expected a chapter named "Deep Ecclesiology" to be among the most profound in a book titled "Deep Church", and was not surprised to see the author he chose to feature in this chapter was Frank Viola. Having just read Viola's sweeping treatise From Eternity to Here, on the church as the expression of God's eternal purpose, and Viola's numerous references to the metaphors in Scripture that form the basis of a profound ecclesiology, I read with anticipation. Boy was I disappointed. Belcher's primary interaction with the reconstructionist group was the reading of Pagan Christianity (a completely deconstructionist work, which says in its own text that it omits what the church should be), and a visit to a house church meeting. Since there are at least five or six different kinds of house churches, that's about as useful as visiting a Baptist church (once) and writing a chapter on all the Baptist denominations. Ignoring postive books like From Eternity to Here, Reimagining Church, Finding Organic Church, or the seminal themes of the reconstructionists (found in works like Ultimate Intention by Devern F. Fromke or The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee), Belcher posits this formulation that totally misses the point: (Belcher's formula) Bible + Tradition + Mission = Deep Ecclesiology It completely shocked me to read this formula. Why shocked? In every other chapter, Belcher sought common ground with the folks he was interacting with. But we know the reconstructionists reject Tradition (at least the post-first-century tradition Belcher is appealing to) out of hand. In this case, he put Viola and anyone else who rejects the liturgy of the Great Tradition in the same boat as the anabaptists, and completely dismisses them. I was expecting Jim Belcher to show the same respect and honor toward the reconstructionist group as he did the relevants and revisionists. To do this, he would interact with the four metaphors for "ekklesia" found in Scripture that are prominently featured in the ecclesiology of the reconstructionists: (Reconstructionist-style formula) Body of Christ + Bride of Christ + Family of God + House of God = Deep Ecclesiology It would be wonderful to see Belcher shine the light on these metaphors and truly interact with the reconstructionists on their terms. For example, each of these four are both Christ-centered and emphasize the nature of the church. Jesus is the head, the groom, the elder brother, and the chief cornerstone. The church is the ever-member-functioning body; the New Jerusalem made of gold, silver and precious stones that descends as a bride for her groom at the eternal wedding feast of the Lamb; a house, the dwelling place of God, built together as living stones from these same materials; and the brothers and sisters who share the same Father and the inheritance made possible by the firsborn Son. Viola and many others trace these themes from Genesis to Revelation, with prominent stops along the way in the gospel of John and the letters to the Ephesians and Colossians. How could Belcher miss all this? I think he just didn't dig deep enough due to his own "Great Tradition" blinders. The profound weakness of the Deep Ecclesiology chapter, however, while it leaves a gaping hole in the book, does not detract from the wonderful writing and insight found in the other chapters. I sincerely hope that there will be a second edition to this book, and that Jim Belcher takes the time to rewrite the Deep Ecclesiology chapter. I would certainly love to see him truly interact with the reconstructionists to the same degree he did the other two camps, pushing past the instinctive dismissal, and look for the common ground. I'm sure the result would be ... deep.
	Belcher scrapes barnacles  Dec 10, 2009
I know there are many of us who have been uncomfortable, yeah even appalled by the doctrinal drift of certain Emerging/Emergent folks. And I know there are quite a few of us who find certain applications of conservative, evangelical theology in America to be culturally bound. In other words, we may believe we are faithfully articulating the "faith once delivered to the saints," while simply pushing our own selfish agendas. Belcher scrapes many "barnacles" off the evangelical boat and seeks to present how the boat should look. No one can claim (and Belcher is humble and wise enough to not fall prey to the temptation) to scrape all of the barnacles off for everyone is a product to some degree of their own culture. However, Belcher does a good job of scraping without going too far and ruining the integrity of the "hull."
	Deep Church for Beginners  Nov 25, 2009
I am reading quite a few books on the church in recent weeks and this one has moved to the top of the list for books I respect and value. This is a very good book, but I think it's audience will mainly be for church or mission leaders who are interested in and already familiar with the names, the issues, and the positions swirling around the "debates" about the Traditional Church, Evangelical Church and Emergent Church. Before I tell you why I like this book, I have one main criticism. I don't know if Third Way is the best language to use. I think there are more partners in this conversation than just the Traditional Church (which he doesn't really describe or define) and the Emergent Church (which he describes and defines very well). And he eliminates from the conversation, the Evangelical Church, except to occasionally make some general comments about parts of the Evangelical movement (which is a very broad and diverse movement). I am an Evangelical who probably has a generous orthodoxy and a sampled faith that I believe is very meaningful... and a pastor of a church that does not fall into any of the categories Belcher described. However, this is a very good book. Here are a few things I really like about it. He does a great job explaining the three main sub-groups within the Emergent Label. This is very helpful for the Emergent movement is far from monolithic. In fact, after reading Deep Church, I even wonder if the term Emergent is helpful, for it automatically lumps some very different people together who are quite far apart. It is always important to understand the nuances within a movement and some of the nuances are more like fissures. He does a nice job explaining classical orthodoxy or "mere Christianity" or the Great Tradition as vital for Deep Church. This is a key point and it grows with significance as he moves through the book. I think a lot more work needs to be done to map out what the Great Tradition is, but he makes a good case for its importance. He does an exemplary job writing a "generous" critique of both Traditional and Emergent approaches and charting out another way. I especially appreciate the warm, irenic, respectful way he critiques the Revisionist Camp within the Emergent Movement (think McLaren, Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt). He refers to his "Reformed misgivings" about the Revisionist's theology. Whether he is right on all his critiques (and I think he is on most of them), he is certainly very right in the conversational, respectful way of engaging with that position. He has modeled the way of civil conversation, dialogue and disagreement. And he does an adequate (and more than adequate) job on all seven chapters dealing with the primary issues of tension: Truth, Evangelism, Gospel, Worship, Preaching, Ecclesiology/Church, and Culture. I say adequate, because each theme is so big that is difficult to cover it well in a single chapter. I think adequate is about the best one could do on these major themes in a single chapter. Especially in trying to chart/map out what the Third Way Forward looks like. (So these adequate chapters are well done!). Brian K. Rice Leadership ConneXtions International [...]

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